you still have to alt tab to every client and then press the correct keybind to activate it,

if you are in client 1 and use keybind for client 2, client 2 will not read the input and wont respond.

only the client "on top" will recieve input and read it, till you select the second client " on top"

In light of the input automation....broadcast....blah blah blah nonsense could I ask (because I've searched on the forums and keep getting confused beyond all measure)

Are keyboards like razer and g15, with the inbuilt functions allowed?

You know the ones that you can make so if you press 1 button it could say...spam f1-f8 for a single client

You know...the ones that have the negative stigma

....the one that starts with Mah and ends in Crow?


Edit : no BS where it mines for 23 hours or anything, the kind of thing I could still do raking my hand across the keyboard, headbashing it or spamming it really fast

And ISBoxer was declared to violate the EULA for over a year (see the previous version of the Third Party Policies under the Client Modification section), but CCP just stated they would not enforce the EULA. Now, after CCP Falcon's post about the new interpretation of the EULA and ToS, players can use ISBoxer as long as they turn off all features that can be considered input broadcasting or input multiplexing.

1. Mike also explained that the 5% when the ISBoxer does make a mistake, EVERYTHING REPLICATES THAT MISTAKE. As such, there is more ISK at risk when the ISBoxer makes his 5% mistake than when 40% of the non-boxed fleet makes a mistake.

2. I draw your attention to this picture: http://www.imageurlhost.com/images/wmyyw90899ha490gktl1.jpg.
The man is not using ISBoxer, nor was he in violation of ISBoxer. He created that setup to flaunt the fact that the ISBoxer program is not the problem. That was accomplished with tape, dowels, and some cheap penny-nails.

I hate to say it, but what really needs to happen to put the complete issue to rest is only allow one client at a time.

I reckon, that would depend. What do your macros do?

If you press one button and your client does 5 things (or 5 different chars do one thing) it's probably not ok.

Same should hold for voice commands. If you tell your ship to warp to gate XYZ and all it actually does is warp there, it should be ok imhol. However, if you tell your ship "go rat in havens until such time that I return" while you go take a hot bath ... that's botting.

if you really wanted to stop multiboxing bombers, removing fleet warping would do major damage to their ability to warp around.

stopping input duplication is a minor annoyance, fleet warping is a major one.

I'm sorry, what? Literally everything you've posted was "I don't want to exert the effort that ISBoxers do ergo they should not be allowed to multibox", "I know nothing about what a group of trained players can do in regards to alpha strikes and general fleet PVP, especially small scale T3 wormhole PVP", and "I know nothing about an economy".

And in your second paragraph you again make the rather ludicrous assumption that multiple accounts do not require $$$ or PLEX to start, do not require time to skill, do not require $$$ or PLEX to keep them active every month, do not require major adjustments on the player's part, and do not require untold hours of fiddling with settings, windows, and VFX that would otherwise be spent earning ISK with a single account.

As I and many others have pointed out countless times, there's a thousand threads in F&I talking about balancing bombers, mining, and incursions. Browse those, specifically the ones regarding the activation code for bombs, the minigame for mining to reward active players that aren't boxed, and reducing ISK payout while increasing LP payouts, then look me in the eye and tell me that none of those would hurt ISBoxers.

The general broadcast ban was aimed at multiple account users using any form of software to play EVE, despite not doing any research into the penalties the usage of ISBoxer incurs. I do apologize for not making enough of a distinction from multi-account users, multiboxers, ISBoxers without broadcasting, ISBoxers with broadcasting, and people who claim they have single accounts but know all about ISBoxer. I will attempt to make better distinctions in the future. I do hope you weren't triggered by my misplaced pronouns.

This whole situation is insane.

1.) CCP says you can't use the multicast feature in ISBoxer.
2.) Well with video FX (which CCP has said windows management features are fine) I get the same functionality, just have to click once per client.

So in summary CCP is saying that if you have 1 client you click the button 1 time. If you have 10 clients you click the button 10 times.

Is that really what CCP is saying? Because that is kinda silly.

What exactly is CCP trying to enforce? What is their goal? Why the secrecy around their goals? I'm very confused.

If they goal is they want everyone to have one client (as CCP Falcon has stated in other forums), then this isn't going to work? Unless the plan is to simply ban anyone who is mining with more than a few characters and just ignore the content of the original post? In which case why even have the thread?

CCP really needs to clarify what they are going for because one half or the other is going to be disappointed and that isn't good customer service in my book.

Or maybe keeping everyone confused is their plan, but that isn't very good customer service either.

For the life of me I don't understand why CCP is happy to sit back and have their community go at each other like this, instead of clearly stating what their goals are. Then again, maybe that is the plan. Maybe we are entertainment for bored CCP employees who like to read our forums and watch us fight like little kids.

I'm tired...so very tired. Time for some sleep.

Not at all. If you have an issue with my solution, instead of sidestepping the solution, I would have accepted any sort of constructive criticism. You claim that "captcha" for bombers are merely a nuisance. I have no doubt it'd be "merely" a nuisance for a single bomber, but for someone like Replicator, he wouldn't be able to launch his 60+ bombs and have them do damage, which is what we were discussing here. As for the mining minigame, it would reward active players sitting behind their keyboard and require concentration on their screen, not people who warp to a belt, hit F1, and walk away. It would also prevent ISBoxers from gaining the same advantage that would be given to the single miner.

As I've mentioned, I have not seen a proper argument set out by CCP or anyone else that supports the ban other than "muh feelings". If you would like to bring to my attention a valid reason, by all means, go ahead. But please stop circling around whenever I ask for a real reason by saying "you'll just ignore it". If your reason, and Kell's, is that it allows massive alpha strikes, why is it that ISBoxers are the only ones capable of such alpha strikes? Many if not all of the gank mails with non-boxers using Tornados achieved their kill with a coordinated alpha strike before the target could activate an appreciable tank after decloaking off a gate or undocking. Shall we ban gankers simply because someone "may" pull off a 140k alpha strike with 9 of his buddies in Tornados?

I'd love to know your definition of "soapboxing" because as far as I can tell, you apply it to anyone who presents an argument against the ban that isn't two sentences long. Just because a change is direct, or made with the best intentions, doesn't mean it's good, or that it will work as intended, or that it was targeting the right problem. If I think CCP is making a change for the wrong reasons or that will have the wrong outcome, I will say something, and I will attempt to posit other ideas or changes that may be, not necessarily *better*, but finer tuned than the sledgehammer approach.

Read the OP. Look at CCP randoms information graphic. The only thing being banned is input broadcasting for in-game actions. Using ISBoxer is allowed, Using ISBoxers window and hardware management is allowed, using round robin/VFX (seems to be) allowed, even using broadcasting to log in and set up client settings is allowed. This has all been said multiple times.

Strictly speaking, using the part of the EULA you have quoted above, ELinor, EFT, jeveassets, eve-mentant, eve-central, eve-marketdata, etc - and even marketing spreadsheets - are against the EULA as they "facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play".

So yeah. Don't get yourself over excited without fact checking first.

I'm not "fogging" anything. He pointed out how the EULA applies, I pointed out that it would also apply to a lot of other things.

It's simple. ISBoxer *is not banned*. I know that some of you would like to to be, but it's not. The only thing banned, is input broadcasting. You can keep leaping about screeching, but that's simply the way it is.

Only time will tell if that will happen. If it does, other people will still find other ways to be better at EVE than you and you'll cry about that too, because at the end of the day this all comes down to jealousy.

They might indeed. I very much doubt they will, but they might. If the real complaint is "people gaining items at an accelerated rate" then they really should. You can make far more trading than any ISBoxer user can make thanks to the marketing tools out there.

WEll no, I'd argue it's further form clarification now than before. Before this was explicitly allowed, as was a host of other methods of using programs to gain items quicker. Now, a single feature has been banned, yet the rest of the program and all of the other programs are still fine.

At least before they weren't enforcing that at all. Now they are partially enforcing it.

So did I understand correctly:

Question : Someone is allowed to Boxing as individual use, but there should not be automatic functions. ???

- What if we see someone in the game using IS-Boxer with automation , How could we report him. More interestingly, which character should we supposed to report. -- > I have personally seen a guy boxing 49 accounts simultaneously to dig and clear up a ice belt as others were just looking for 1 or 2 circle to finish. It is utterly unfair for the others. Moreover, I saw this *** on EVE-Bazaar to sell these accounts as "mining Accounts" after 4-5 Months as perfect starting accounts with 5B (Of course, I do not tell you the name , all I can say is that he was one of this typical Rule-Bending-Russian-Guys)

Currently my ALT-Char was bumped in 0.0 sec to a multi-Boxing guy who shoot in same time and cleared up every member of my gank in single-handedly with max. 20M cheap ships. I am completely against this kind of action, but on the contrary I am not doing that in the game. My purpose is controlling different chars in same time in different grids. Am I still allowed to use that even though it is called Boxing? Should I have to drop it or what? I do not want surprising ban after Jan 1, 2015.

My personal Experience : I use IS-Boxer for doing jobs separately on 2 other accounts to follow and judge the situation instead automation ( Instead of ALT+TAB combination between windows). It is practical. My Q. is : Should I stop doing this too or am I allowed to using on? How would you plan to distinguish the guys like me and the guys like these 2 examples?????



Thank you for your time

E.

Would be nice if you point to the section of the EULA, where you read this.

Right, and yet this isn't banned. Just like how cache scraping isn't banned, and just like how TS and mumble overlays are against the EULA, and yet not banned. Seriously, are you new to EVE?

While in theory, yes, they could ban people without warning of a change in their interpretation of the EULA, they wouldn't because they run a business and it would make pretty bad press. Hell, do you realise they can ban you even if you do nothing wrong? The EULA isn't a legally binding document. They can literally ban your account because they suspect you like the colour purple if they want to. It doesn't mean they will. and at the moment, the other methods of controlling ISBoxer are note lined up for the banhammer, and so people will continue to use them.

I know exactly what I'm arguing, when people like Eryn jump in talking about how it's not allowed, then you jump in in support, then clearly you aren't just saying they can ban you for anything they want.

At the end of the day, it's simple. Broadcasting is banned, the rest of ISBoxer isn't. The end.

thatsThePoint.jpg


I am allowed to voice my opinion without resorting to such drastic measures. I was merely bringing something to light that may not have been visible for the "grr boxers" crowd.

If you wish to suppress people's voice and opinion and leave only one voice as "the truth" then I suggest taking a look at any history book written in the past 50 years.

Eli and Tyr are still here. As well as the others who pop in just to say "grr boxers" and then disappear.

While I did suggest (and have been told by other boxers) that some will leave for other games, you told me to unsub simply for continuing a discussion and I quoted your exact phrasing in my previous response. If you wish to delete or edit what you said as some form of retroactive "no I didn't, you're changing my arguments", go right ahead. Such narrow-mindedness will get you nowhere IRL, not to mention EVE.

You either just told me to unsub, or you were trying (and failed) to tell OTHER people to unsub. If you're trying to say something else and don't have the right phrasing, either don't say it, or call up your grade 8 English/Grammar teacher and apologize for sleeping in class.

All I did was echo the thoughts presented to me by some fellow boxers; nothing more. Or do I really have to go around and ask people who said what because some forum warrior can't understand that I interact with other users?

To be fair, that does kinda read like you saying the classic: If you don't like it, unsub.

Don't use them, don't know enough about them to comment. I knew what isboxer was capable of and it was obvious to me it that being able to control 20 or 50 characters with 1 click is a massive in game advantage.

No. I know enough about how isboxer allowed you to duplicate commands across many clients, and thus was able to make a judgement that it's cheating, and I made this judgement long before CCP decided to finally outlaw it. CCP seem to agree that isboxer offers too much of an ingame advantage, hence the outlawing of input broadcasting.

There has to be a better solution than leaving. Everyone I know in this game does multibox. If people I know start to get bans for no reason I will have to re-evaluate though.
I am not plexing my accounts as I do not have time for grinding but whats the use of multiple (payed!) accounts if you can not run them simultaniously? (I am not talking of using software to multibox, but simply running multiple accounts over 1 IP at the same time)
Some official feedback seems to be overdue.

Round robin isn't broadcasting. And no, the multiboxing community were putting these things forwards as legitimate concerns around how far the ban extended. If CCP wanted to ban all of those things they could simply say "Yes, that is also banned", and people would abide by it. Instead CCP say "you have to ask in a ticket", then in the ticket the GM says "you have to ask in this thread".

I understand that it doesn't affect you and combined with your lack of ability to consider something from someone else's position means you don't care, but the players this affects have for the most part been incredibly reasonable and they have been treated like they don't exist. It's absolutely disgusting customer service.

If that were the case, then manual multiboxer wouldn't be getting banned, and yet...

And yet they are. Keep up.

What exactly would it take to make you believe?
And why is it that whenever people rail against ISBoxer claiming "wah he's got an unfair advantage" while providing no proof, it's "Listen and Believe!" but whenever we try to do something it's met with cries of "SAUCE" and "proof!"? Talk to the people yourself. I've talked to one of those banned firsthand. It was fun, you know, human interaction and all.

Wait, you're asking your friends, in game, if they have been banned?

I think I found your problem.

Head over to the ISBoxer forum and ask for "Sumeragy". He was one of the leads in getting a setup to work without using straight broadcasting, so the idea that he was banned for "reverting to straight broadcasting" is hilarious, and I giggle whenever I hear it.

If I was referring to ISBoxer, the Gûê block would have been replaced with "ISBoxer". As it wasn't, it should have been painfully clear to even Greedy Goblin that I was referring to an outside bot program that was NOT ISBoxer. Input automation is the automation of inputs that no longer require a human to be sitting behind the keyboard pressing buttons. I don't understand how this is not clear. Ford's automatic factories are called "automatic" because the robots can do all the work with a skeleton crew of humans to sit in a booth or walk around making sure the robotic arms didn't weld each other to the frame.

you are using evemon dont you?
so it is not bothering you.
People who dont use evemon do have a clear disadvantage cause they cant plan and remap properly.
in fact, they are losing time over those players who are using evemon.
Players with evemon have to pay less to reach their skillgoals.
so evemon is pay to win?
so why the **** is that allowed?

It's not that it makes it faster. It's that it can be argued that it grants an advantage over someone who DOESN'T use EVEMon, or EFT. With EVEMon, you can optimize your queue for a year or more and optimize your attribute remap timing and train faster than someone who hasn't mapped it out and perfectly remaps every year.

For EFT, just because you don't use it doesn't mean it can't provide an advantage. My current PVP toy came about because of EFT/PYFA, as I have to use a meta module in order to cram everything on without implants. I challenge you to find me someone who has memorized each and every module in EVE and their CPU/PG attributes. I'd be very surprised if someone has. Some of the meta modules (damage controls, for example) are kinda expensive, and new players without much ISK or market skills would buy the meta 4 one (currently 8m or so Jita) and find out it didn't fit, or that he could fit the T2 version, and now he's wasted ISK.

sorry. forgot EFT.

evemon is calculating the best remap.
i dont see you filling the skill queue for a year and calculating manually what should be the best remap. really i dont see it.

and even though.
evemon is violating the new eula directly.
ccps statement that this violation is ok ....erm... will not be a bannable offense is rendering the whole eula useless and greyzoned.
cause ccp can flip their statements each and every second. plus youre getting different statements based on the ccp employee you are asking.

and the best thing is.
one gm is accusing another for lying.
i am not kidding.

so ccp, balls to the walls. state clearly what is allowed and what is not.
regarding to the forums and eula statements: videofx + manuall multiboxing one key per box per command is allowed.
so stick to that and stop banning players for beeing fast.

or post here in the forums. from a dev, a gm, or from hilmar himself. that isboxer + videofx + manual multiboxing is forbidden.

easy for everyone. the whole problematique is there because ccp dont get it done to publish a clear statement.

we were happy as ccp stated: broadcasting and multiplexing is forbidden. we adapted and still got banned a few.

we want to stay in eve as customers. so if you want us to stay. erase the grey areas. its not that hard.

well. at least i dont pick my skills after what stats they use to skill.
i pick my skills what i wanna fly. and if thats a big ship with guns and shields and armor which takes more than a year i let evemon calculate the fastest way for that.
if you show me ingame how i can do that i would appreciate that.

Do you believe it now? My post was indeed clipped...

you may excuse me, but getting different answers from the same ccp gm through different accounts where ccp dont know the second one belongs to me is a huge Problem.

and i bet my orca, that they dont post the Team security decision here in public cause that will Show everyone with a different answer how ccp is working.

THAT is why i am asking if Hilmar is Aware of the Situation.

in the real world you get fired if you tell customer A) the sky is blue and customer B) the sky is green.

from the beginning of my isboxer career i told ccp the names of all of my boxing toons, i stated what Kind of Software i use and what i am intending to do with it, and i was asking if it was violating the eula.

cause i dont want violating the eula.

funny Thing is. german gm told me isboxer is totally forbidden, while lelouch answer still remains.
my concerns about having a german answer as a rule for an international community was swept aside by the gm telling me i have to obey.
nothing happend... cause he just posted his own meaning. sad enough eh can do that in petitions so that normal Players maybe take that as an official answer.

wake up guys. it is not.
official answers on rules and everything related with eve is to be found ONLY in the Forums AND / OR devblogs. NEVER EVER in petitions. i learned that that day.

so here i am, playing with isboxer since 2010.04.23 where lelouch posted that it is indeed ok.
and after january the first 2015 the broadcasting Feature suddenly became a banable offense.

in Germany we have a Thing called "Gewohnheitsrecht" i am not quite sure if that is working in other countries too, but in Germany it is.
have to find out where i have to suit ccp in what Country.


so:
1.) i petitioned myself from the beginning. maybe the reason why i never got banned.
2.) answers in petitions are meanings not rules and never ever you will get the same answer.

i think about contacting my lawyer to look into the customer contract i have with ccp. and how much of the eula is not legal.

LOL the "I'm still here but I still don't care, no really guys I don't care" thing.

i dont see the Problem checking a Service Company like ccp on a reliable eula.
even i cant see the laughter cause i gonna contact my lawyer about.
i am throwing Money at this game. hence i can check it on legal Terms.

with all due respect, i am not some random ock posting with an alt.

I'd like to take "I didn't read the thread" for 500, Alex!
In case you didn't read the thread, allow me to reiterate:
We were told by CCP to submit tickets asking about ISBoxer.
We submit these tickets.
GMs tell us to ask our questions in this thread.
We post in this thread.
CCP doesn't respond.

If CCP has a lack of GMs (or Devs) who play the game, I'd be more than happy to start working for them. I think it'd be a wonderful experience

CCP CANT... it is not a matter of allowing. you cant scan something where windows dont gives you permissions to. get that into your skull.


Would be windows 7 in my case then.


pretty weird huh? windows can get you banned :)

We get the message from ccp, that input multiplexing and broadcasting is banable.
we multibox without and still might get banned <--- THAT is the problem
no we dont have interpreted the eula in another way. we just dont do that what falcon posted.
we dont broadcast, we dont use macros, we dont multiplex.

just one command. with one finger. to one box.
nothing more. that is not macroing, it is not broadcasting.
it is called typing. with 10 fingers.ffs

is ccp going to reglement the usage of fingers now?

This argument is still going?

Replicating a single input to multiple clients was stupid.

Get over it.

I revealed a player using RoundRobin, which by Steve's OWN ADMISSION IS FINE. If anyone's moving goalposts, it's you, as you keep shying away from providing any evidence or proof that ISBoxer magically makes a player more efficient than an identical fleet. But hey, if CCP doesn't want me to be a productive member of this game, I'll happily afk-rat all day long, creating zero content.

I was referring to your earlier posts where you made the claims regarding the speed, and where Kinete argued against it afterwards. So the burden of proof is still on you and CCP. Additionally, you're arguing guilty before proven innocent, something which no civilized society uses in court anymore. I wonder how big a proponent of "guilty before proven innocent" you would be if you got caught in a ban wave that was targeting, oh, lets say ISK buyers. And finally, CCP Peligro (I think) himself stated that they do not have a client-side detection method at Fanfest, and you can ask them yourself directly by submitting a ticket.

Check. Mate.

daily users are starting to fall below 30k on a regular basis, how long can this company survive with a staff reflecting 2013 but a player base that is 2006?

The game is on the wane, and the banning of people using automation to run multiple accounts has seen the population drop from consistent 50,000 + players, to less than 30,000. Despite what bs CODE. / Goonswarm want to preach, people have left the game since this ban has been put in place.

Why?

Some of the best content of the game is not doable w/o several people or several accounts. There are always more people out there interested to build and explore alone, then there will be who wish to be forced into groups with a-holes that most people would not give the time of day to.

Those solo players have to be provided a rich game experience also, or they will not stay, and they have not. Who wants to be in a game where you constantly reminded that if you don't join a group of scum to get access to the best parts of the game, then one never will?

Work on that problem first, start unlocking the good game content to solo players.

The same applies to bots. Explain the difference please.